Upper/Lower state seedings????

Anyone have the seeds???

I heard that little weight was put on previous state qualifiers/placers or strength of competition. Was that true? If it was, that is a bad precedent to set. A kid/team that has a very strong schedule and seeks out competition should not be penalized and encouraged to "fluff" their schedule.

Any insight?

I heard the same thing Lex. The teams that wrestle 3a/4a teams, week end and week out, with kids that have 50+ matches are punished cause their win percentage is not as high as a kid that has only wrestled locally with 30 match records. I was told they went head to head and then win percentage, if no h to h. I know of several cases where it screwed up the seeding royally! Maybe they will let them wrestle back for true 2nd since you top wrestlers are going to be meeting in the semi's in several cases.

breaking my own rule by responding but this line of questioning will come up every year. Until they seperate all classes then have an open tour at the end. Nelson, you are right but it will never matter until all classes hold their own tour the send the best to an open like most other states. We at Hanahan are fortunate to have nothing but 4a teams around us. Our choices are "extremely" minimal to wrestle 2a or 1a in or DISTRICT EMPOSED ruling area. The entire system needs to be re-evaluated. Good luck to all this weekend

Lex and Nelson,

Your agrument is flawed. According to what you are talking about, the strengh of their schedule for current year should be taken into account, not what they last season at the state finals. I am partialy in agreement about limiting the importance of previous state finals, especially if they are up a weight or two from the previous year. How many wrestlers do you know who went state at one weight and failed to qualify the next year at another weight. Now if they stay at the same weight, then it should be considered. On determining strength of schedule, how would we do that and not have the BCS problem?

Well I have seen some records 36-1, 35-2, etc who wrestled no quality tournaments nor quality duals and those wrestlers couldn't hold a candle to the 40-12 and 38-14 wrestlers I know but they are seeded ahead, some well ahead, of them just cause they dont have any head to head but a better win%; and the kids are state placers where the other kids are not???? The seeding number doesnt bother me but it bothers me when the two best wrestlers fall on the same side of the bracket and there is no wrestle back for true 2nd, therefore the two best wrestlers in 1A/2A in the State will have to wrestle each other in LowerState before the finals (eventually finishing 1st and 3rd) and will meet at State before the finals again cause they will again fall on the same side of the bracket.

I heard a rumor that Upperstate is going to be single elimination for the first two rounds b/c their are so many wrestlers entered into it. That sucks!

It is borderline pathetic sometimes on here, everyone has opinion, then a rebuttal, then an excuse! It amazes me that people will find something to complain, compare, or simply just try to pick at. Thank god that the wrestling is done on the mat, not by those on here. The raise of the hand determines the results. It is simply opinion who is the better wrestler unless there is a head to head to compare. Better competition, please first people say they should combine the classifications to make it a better state over all, then people use that they wrestled the mighty AAAA as crutch to say one record is better than the other. Who cares where they meet in the brackets, should it be said that the better wrestler will move on and that is that... What about people simply moving weight in fear of competition or moving to an easier weight for records? I hate getting on here an expressing frustration towards comments, but sometimes I have too!!! If I didn’t respond then I would have to kick my dog and dam it I love my dog!!!!!!

IT IS A QUALIFING TOURNAMENT TOP FOUR HAVE CHANCE TO PRACTICE ONE MORE WEEK, GET BETTER AND PROVE THEMSELVES AGAINST THE REST. TO ME IF YOU ONLY THINK YOUR GUY HAS A CHANCE BECAUSE OF SEEDING THEN LOOK IN THE MIRROR ASK YOURSLEF IF YOU REALLY THINK HE IS THE BEST WRESTLER.....

Herman

If that's the case why have a seed meeting? Just draw everyone randomly. If they have to wrestle each other anyways as you say, what's the point in keeping records?

Exactly, that why the seeding ended up the way it did........ RECORDS!!!!!!!!!!! Thanks for agreeing with me... It makes me warm and fuzzy inside to know that we are on the same page, thank you for your statement....

Records mean nothing if you wrestle the same teams and beat the same kids 5 times. It was far from an agreement. Kids got screwed today, face it.

Well back to your statement, I guess those that do have that occur should only count one win? Or not even keep their records and their season should be over at what date you suggest? At what point should those that are not "up to standard" stop wrestling and move onto other sports.... No one got screwed, everyone has as opportunity. I do think the criteria should have been discussed more in depth and could have been tweaked further, many coaches voted towards the agreement. Once again as long as there is two or more involved their will varying opinions about any situation. Everyone on here has obligations to support or protect their “bunker”. When one is happy another is mad…. I leave this conversation with a quote from a famous man “So be it, as long as the day is not at end, every swing d—k has his chance”
Peace!
Paul Herman

Guess we shall so how those RECORDS fare for those "TOP GUNS" !

nice quote .. This issue must be resolved by separating classes. Maybe next year? The governing bodies have 8 months to figure it out. Everybody interested wants to see the best vs. the best. This year may be the opportunity for the HSL to wake up

On this site, I most likely opened myself to scutiny stating what I did. So be It.. Fix It I'll take the "crap" on this site if it helps. See you Friday

If you are happy with the way things are heading in wrestling good for you. You're doing a great job, but.... Wrestle the same people over and over see what you get out of it. There's 284 wrestlers in the upper state wrestling for 56 spots (14X4). Ask why Chesterfield is in Lower State there should be more upper state teams in lower state. As for seeding goes, I guess we should all go wrestle the same competition every week.. I think the cream always rises to the top.

Still everyone is complaining about strengh of schedule and there is no fair way to determine who wrestled a stronger schedule. As for the comment of wrestling the same person five times, if the "ELITE" teams would not turn their noses up to the "LESSER" teams, it may solve the problem. Having a quad that included these teams would solve the problem. Another way to even the playing field would be to rasie the amount of matches that you would have had to wrestle or win to be seeded. A wrestler would either have to have wrestle or win 16 matches since that is the maximum amount of dates that you would have to wrestle. As for the "better"two wrestlers being on the same side of the bracket, I know from personal experience, that teams will intentionally foreit the championship final or 3rd -4th place match to avoid wrestling a person. It happen to one of my wrestlers. finally have you really know a wresler with a 36-1 or 35-2 record who was rubbish???????

j alley do you or anyone know how many wrestlers are competing in the lower state. I don't think it is a big difference. There were many AAA lower state teams that became AA, so I think that it balanced out. If it didn't those same teams that were in the lower state last year, besides chesterfiled, would still be in the lower state this year.

If the upperstate has 280 that's 20 per weigh class on average......the lowerstate didn't have a single weight class that had 20 kids in it. 103 in lowerstate only has 9 kids.....largest weight class in lowerstate has 18....I wouldn't say it is even close to the upperstate numbers.

The key word is IF they have that many. I would be supprised if they had over 30 more wrestlers competiting than we did. Do you think the other divisions are worried if the upper state have more that the lower state and vice versa. If you really read between what is being said, they beleive that the A/AA lower state qualifier is an easier road to the state finals.

Really we need to determine the direction we want SC wrestling to go. If we want to give kids the chance to become a state champion and to be uniform and fair, seperate all of the divisions. If we want to increase competitive opportunities which will make our wrestler better, we need to go to either one or two divisions and if we go to two, allow the division with the smaller higher school populations to have more schools in that division. A sort of economies of scale.

Sure are alot of women on this board now.

If the numbers are correct in which I think they are real close in the upstate they would be having approxiamtely 74 pig tell matches. Wow, that is crazy. I do know that some weight classes had as many as 26 wrestlers and all weight classes had more than 16 entries. And if this is an open invitation tournament why is there not given any 32 man brackets and forcing kids that are good enough for the 16 man bracket to be seeded yet being forced to wrestle pig tail matches just to get into the 16 man bracket. Example: A number 8 seed according to his win percentage not his ability is being forced to wrestle just to get into the 16 man bracket. This no fault to anyone person but just a big flaw on the SCHSL. How many out there would enjoy having 74 pig tail matches before the tournament even begins? Question Lowerstate....How many pig tail matches is on slate before we get started? The best thing it seems when it comes to seeding for next yrs. tournament is to have your kids take those forfeits and not to bump your kids to wrestle the better competition for the teams sake cause the kid will be pentalized for it at the individual seeding. Of course winning percentage without any head to head competition sometimes gets throwed out the window because it seems to be the political thing do. There seems to be no set format for seeding, other than what is decided on that day. A 32 man bracket is the only way bracketing to have fairly went.....Can u say Blind Draw for a kid that no one knows anything about, I guess if you are his coach you like that......

If the numbers are correct in which I think they are real close in the upstate they would be having approxiamtely 74 pig tell matches. Wow, that is crazy. I do know that some weight classes had as many as 26 wrestlers and all weight classes had more than 16 entries. And if this is an open invitation tournament why is there not given any 32 man brackets and forcing kids that are good enough for the 16 man bracket to be seeded yet being forced to wrestle pig tail matches just to get into the 16 man bracket. Example: A number 8 seed according to his win percentage not his ability is being forced to wrestle just to get into the 16 man bracket. This no fault to anyone person but just a big flaw on the SCHSL. How many out there would enjoy having 74 pig tail matches before the tournament even begins? Question Lowerstate....How many pig tail matches is on slate before we get started? The best thing it seems when it comes to seeding for next yrs. tournament is to have your kids take those forfeits and not to bump your kids to wrestle the better competition for the teams sake cause the kid will be pentalized for it at the individual seeding. Of course winning percentage without any head to head competition sometimes gets throwed out the window because it seems to be the political thing do. There seems to be no set format for seeding, other than what is decided on that day. A 32 man bracket is the only way bracketing to have fairly went.....Can u say Blind Draw for a kid that no one knows anything about, I guess if you are his coach you like that......

Wow. I was just expecting a response or two.

Herman,
I don't want you to freek out and go kick your dog or defile your keyboard, but the way it comes across it sounds like you believe reality (accomplishments) and record vs quality opponents is meaningless compared to win % against repeated crappy competiton. That may not have been what you were trying to get across so eloquently, but it seems that way.

I'm guessing the coaches that wanted to support putting the emphasis on sheer record are the ones with very weak schedules. A lot of coaches pad their schedule with what they expect to be easy wins and avoid the big events. It would be nice if they would admit it instead of barfing up flawed logic to justify avoiding competition.

I remember several years ago teams like Baptist Hill and Academic Magnet got super high seeds because they had inflated records of like 18-1 and nobody knew who they wrestled. Then of course, their guys got crushed at Lowerstate. Being that there are more teams that take the approach of hiding out so to speak and only wrestling the same crappy teams they know they can beat repeatedly (be they 1a, 2a, 3a, or 4a), the voting for criteria will likely go the patsy route. The same guys probably want as many state events as possible to make it easier for their kids to be called state champs and also have a shot at getting their own dual "ring" and bonus. What is the old saying " If you're going to be dipsh*t, you might as well be king of the dipsh*ts." One thing about cockroaches is they only come out and play when there is no one to step on them.

WE all know it is never going to be perfect, but guys should have some integrity. If your program schedules butterflies, owe up to it. Don't lie and claim that your kid is the man because he picks on the same creampuffs repeatedly. The problem with seeding the way it went down is that in some cases you can have the 4 best guys on the same side of the bracket. Despite what others have said on here, there can be that guy with an 18-1 (in reality a 10-9 quality of wrestler) record that walks to the finals (gets crushed of course) and then a few significantly better wrestlers don't qualify. It also encourages teams to make cowardly schedules. Guys that schedule the Southern Slam, The Bearcat, The Outback, Lugoff, etc potentially get screwed. Challenge matches could help with this.

Hopefully it will all work out this weekend. Props to the teams that scheduled the big events this year and sought out competition.

Wrestlebacks for true second would bring some parity to this flawed seeding! And you will see several kids with with 90% and better records this weekend not even place in weigh classes with two kids with 80% records in the finals if they got lucky enough to get on separate sides of the bracket!

Maybe we should adopt something akin to what college football does; BCS?

The Upperstate kids are getting screwed this year. There is atleast 20 wrestlers in each weight class and in some weight classes there are kids that have won over 20 matches (8 and 9 seeds) having to wrestle pigtails to just get in. Yes, I know if they are good enough they should get in, but they are having to wrestle an extra match and had the risk of getting hurt. This is crazy. The schsl did not spilt the teams up evenly and wont let the upperstate use 32 man brackets. It could be sunday before the upperstate tournament finishes, because of all the pigtails on Friday. If you are in the lower state be happy.

well there are kids with 43-1 records in lower that have the same problem. so let just let it play out.

To clarify: I want it to be understood that by no means do I agree with padding records, trying to seek out weaker competition, or avoiding “quality competition”

Now, at the seeding meeting I made the suggestion towards using winning % with the example of strictly comparing one scenario: Example in lower weights you have a freshmen who has had an outstanding year, 35-3 or so wrestling and there is an upper classmen that has had a decent year regardless the schedule (because as so many of you have stated so many are vary levels of quality) has record of 23-15 but happen to qualify the prior season (SQ) only. Based on the seeding criteria this wrestler would be ahead of the freshmen simply by having (SQ). That was the only thing I was discussing. AND TRUTH IS TOLD THAT WOULD HAVE POSSIBLE SCREWED ONE MY WRESTLERS WITH WHAT I WAS SUGGESTING, BUT I WANT THE WRESTLER TO BE REWARD FOR THE SEASON OF WORK IN WHICH WE ARE WRESTLING. It turned into a vote and then winning % was placed in front of everything else. I agree that multiple anything should have been in front of winning %, Example would be head to head, state champion, multiple state placer, multiple state qualifier, then use winning %, over state placer, and state qualifier. This would allow for the total wrestlers body of work and the season at hand to be used to seed the wrestler.

It simply gets old hearing about competition and not venturing out, I sure that occurs in all sports, but it always work itself out!!!! There is nothing that can be done. Each coach has his obligation to coach to their beliefs, but many of them are handcuffed as well. Not making excuses for anyone just a fact. I sleep great at night so I am not going to defend or complain about another coach’s schedule. I only can state the facts about my schedule, therefore I believe that schedule I wrestle is competitive for the wrestles I have. Yes, occasionally a school of my “quality” will have a solid wrestler, not because of me but because he loves the sport and does the things that are required to become a “quality” wrestler. The support system for wrestling is more important to the sport than any other, I guess baseball would be up there as well with both sports having to have parent involvement, money for camps, transportation, out of season requirements, and simply the love and dedication it requires. On top of that many small schools have one coach, and he coaches multiple sports. There are two huge fingers to point at two schools that are proof of why the same schools are on top! Bamberg and Chesterfield, I would venture to say that by % breakdown of importance, it is much more crucial to a program to have all the above before you simply say it all because of what tournaments they went to. Example would be Hanahan, I use them because many of said they didn’t venture out this year, I think they did pretty good, but call me crazy.

The truth, there was two weight classes where the result of winning % really effected the brackets (in my opinion) No question a few “quality guys might have got lower seeds then deserved, but I and I would also assume that their coach is not concerned, we both know that those wrestlers will do what it takes to be where they want to be when the day is over. That is what truly determines “quality”.
The truth is told if there was a weight class without any state criteria to determine, no head to head, then winning % is the route. Several weight classes had that after one or may be two guys. So no matter the criteria people would be complaining.

There are 16 dates of opportunity, meaning a small school that might not even have budget can attend 16 dual matches, if they are lucky the school they schedule will have a third team to make it a tri-match, several small schools only have one mat and time gets out of hand trying to run a quad on one (trust me tried it). Then getting matches with those quality schools, several times I have seen comments on this board where people of “quality” have stated they don’t want to wrestle 1A schools for fear of what we are discussing now. So let’s do simple math: 16 dates x 2 teams (if lucky) that’s 32 possible matches. Sorry these numbers don’t reach the forty and fifties. Now on top of that my region now has five teams which I am proud that are region has show effort to grow the sport and try to improve each year, with the coaches trying to start a middle school group that would wrestle within the region next season. Per our region constitution to determine a region champ all teams must wrestle twice, as a region we recognized that this would take a lot of dates up and agreed to do this in two dates (which makes for a long night on one mat)  , on top of those two dates we hold individual region tournament taking another date.

Question LEX, please answer the following question: How can a school like a St’ John’s (first year program that filled ten weight classes with guys that want to get better and enjoy the sport, or any team in my region improve their schedule? I was given a budget of $700 dollars this season that had to pay for everything other than transportation this season which could not travel outside 100 miles, I have got my CDL and will drive next year to offset those costs. Now, the minimum cost for tournament is $150, by us going to just two tournaments a dual and individual (Cane Bay and Hanahan) $300 plus paying for just two home matches with officials and security budget gone. Now officials booking fees, registration with weight certification, plus traveling to just one more individual tournament then we went over and now we are in the red! O’yea I know the simple answer is to have fundraisers! But I know you will be able to answer this question much more eloquently!

Herman

Just wanted to provide for some soft reading while many of you are not doing what you are suppose to be doing! I am matter of fact am on my planning period and I consider this planning so have at it!

Herman,

you received $700 more than Chesterfield has received in the past 10 years combined....and we have to pay for transportation. The 100 mile radius does kill you guys....I agree. This issue comes up every year. We always say "the top four will rise to the top," but we all hate to see the top 2 wrestlers in a bracket competing in the quarters because one of the kids had a 54-9 record against a variety of competition and there are other kids who are 14-2 with 7 forfeit victories ahead of them. In the end it only hurts the other kid who will likely lose in the semis and have to run into the 54-9 kid in the elimination round.

The prime example was that lightweight from Timberland who came in every season with like a 20-0 record....he did this for three years!!! I think he MIGHT have finally qualified his senior year?

only the 3rd year in 2A for Timberland so talk trash about someone else

I don't think LSO was talking trash, he was just stating the truth......I know for a fact that kid came in one year with a 10-0 record and went 0-2 at lowerstate, after being given the #1 seed. What people aren't understanding is that what a kid has done in the past has got to count for something. A multiple state placer didn't happen by fluke, the kid is good and should be seeded over a kid with a 24-3 record who has never qualified for or placed at state.

The arguement makes me want to water down my schedule so we can have #1 seeds at the qualifying tournament every year..........who cares if they are worth a crap as long as their confidence is high because they are a "projected" state qualifier.

Then again if I got a rather large bonus for one kid qualifying for the state tournament like some counties..........I'd probably want winning percentage to be high on the seeding criteria too......it would definitely give me a better chance to fill my pockets......right?

All this talk, can somebody tell me what the seeding is? (or where is it posted)Lowerstate

Nothing has been released yet but it sucks and you don't really need to see it. Just imagine that all kids were drawn randomly out of a hat and that it doesn't really matter who deserves to be the higher seed. Nope the higher seed went to the one that looked the best on paper.

Want take a kid unless he wins at lest 15 matches on the mat and have not taken a 103 in a while.

Herman,
As to the point of this thread, this is not bad:
I agree that multiple anything should have been in front of winning %, Example would be head to head, state champion, multiple state placer, multiple state qualifier, then use winning %, over state placer, and state qualifier. This would allow for the total wrestlers body of work and the season at hand to be used to seed the wrestler.

As for the rest, LSO answered quite well. I understand the plight of new teams and travel restrictions. The easy answer is raise money. If the kids and coach for that matter, want to get better, then put in the effort to raise money to pay for extra events. I don't know many coaches who only use their budget and then say "oh well." At least the ones that have historically produced solid wrestlers don't seem to. In the Pit Bull club, it is all on us. So guess what, we raise money and and they work hard to give our kids the best coaching and competition we can. I guess priorities are different for all coaches. Everyone has to deciede if they want to excel or exist. then it is all about implementation. I don't think it is fair to expect to be rewarded just because a coach or team is in new or consistently mediocre situation.

Though I would love for St. Johns (didn't know they had a team~glad to hear it) to be able to be competitive right away, giving them higher seeds than they merit is not right. Taking from other kids that have cut their teeth so that these new or uninspired teams can feel good does not seem right. With risk comes reward.

I guess the best way to answer your question is:
1-Think outside the box (beyond your $700 budget and travel issues) and find a solution like most everyone does. Raise that money or have your kids/parents do it.
2-There is nothing wrong with competing in the off season. Statistics show those that do have regular season success.
3-If you can come up with ideas or get your kids up to par in the regular season with what you have been doing, get help. Get someone to coach with you that can help the kids get better.
4-There are plenty of teams around to get matches with. BE had a lot of openings. Hanahan schedules a ton of home matches that are easy to get onto.

Anyone can join a club in the off season if their in season program is lacking. I welcome anyone into Pit Bull that wants to join as long as they are will to work hard. There are plenty of other clubs around as well. We start March 9th at 5:00.

And I'm ready Lex. can't wait for 2 double fudge shakes at our home away from home. Steak and shake I'm so ready. Just hate the ride home. It was bad

Lex which nights to you guys practice and where?

I know he has one that will practice 7 nights a week 5-8 hrs a night and any place that will let him. Getting hard to get him into Florida. lol

I think nex't year we will just send in names and weight classes.

look it worked got everyone off subject. haha quit all the B^#*$ing let the kids go to town

Hey Lex... how about telling everybody that info on Pit Bull club can be found at www.pitbullwrestlingsc.webs.com ! Or on facebook - Pit Bull Wrestling Club

I have been removed from the sport this season, unfortunately. Can someone please tell me who decided this criteria? Was there a majority agreement to use this criteria at the seeding meeting? I find it hard to believe that most coaches would prefer this form of seeding.

Charleston decided this criteria......excluding Hanahan.......

Sometimes Cody, you amaze me...

Out of Charleston area North Charleston, Stall, St. John's and I were present and voted. Not sure how Bishop England voted. The Coach from Timberland did not vote for it!!!!! Meaning to tell me that the vote was won by 4 guys???? You should get your facts together before spouting at the mouth... Whale Branch might have voted for it, but I think they are in your region??? That would still only make 5 I belive the count was around 9 to 11 for it, but I am not sure... So i don't want to say exact numbers....

The teams that I remember being there were:
Cross
North Charleston
St. John's
Whale Branch
Edisto
Bamberg
Waccamaw
Lake City
Chesterfield
Marion
Aynor
Swansea
Bishop England
Hanahan

Thats 14 teams right there, meaning it needed with just that list at least 8 votes to pass.

eh just wanted to get you fired up!!! Glad to see it worked......Makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside You sure do have a long planning period.....

PS our vote was flawed anyhow because I know of two teams who got two votes.........should have been one vote per team........not that it would have mattered because Herman had already brainwashed everyone in the room by talking in circles.....it was awesome

Sorry Stall was there too, meaning 15 teams needing at least 8 for it to pass...

Cjs53,
As of right now, we will be using Hanahan's practice room. It is centrally located and easy for Charleston area people to get to. I want to make it CLEAR~Pit Bull Club is NOT affiliated or run by Hanahan. I design the schedule, practices, etc. C-Lewis and I work together on the overall direction. We have a good number of quality kids from their team in the club and the school is gracious enough to let us use their facilities, but that is it. Anyone is welcome to join the club provided the get a USA Wrestling card and come in with the mindset to get better. The practices are geared towards individuals that want to excel. Info will be posted on the site as Xena said (if it is not already). We are fortunate to have some great volunteers. We would love to have more.
Practices will be M/W from 5-7ish starting March 9th in Hanahan's room. Club cost is $75 for the year. We provide a team shirt and you can travel w the team to all events. MUST have USA wrestling card to wrestle in Hanahan's room. No exceptions.

In the future, we would like to get our own space, but costs of mats and such take time to iron out.

I will post info on here as well.

Thanks, I've got a couple of kids I may bring down. I gotta get them better so they can one day have a beautiful record and get the #1 seed at lowerstate. Or I could just wrestle eaiser teams.

how i feel about this...

How about you guys wrestle the fluff teams. Call them out and get a match. When you beat them, problem solved. If you choose not to wrestle them, it's on you so stop b!t€hing. I think that by having some quads would work and allow the elite teams to continue wrestling higher quality teams